A conversation with Silke Buhr and Svantje Woltersdorf about the compatibility of motherhood and career in production design | About perspectives and working conditions in the art department 

So far, the film industry has not been considered particularly family-friendly...

JOSEFINE: I googled “family friendliness and the film industry” and the first thing that popped up in bold was “So far, the film industry is not considered to be particularly family friendly.”

In 2017, 70% of key positions in film were still held by men [1]. In 2021, 79% of respondents to a large-scale survey stated that they found working in film to be fundamentally incompatible with family life, or only in exceptional cases [2]. In our day-to-day work as set designers, especially on smaller productions, it happens that we are the first to arrive and the last to leave. This is not the norm for well-positioned productions, but at the same time we are talking about extreme working conditions in an environment that is already considered to be absolutely un-family friendly. Balancing family and career is therefore an even greater challenge in our department.

You are two mothers who work as production designers and in the art department – thank you for taking the time today to talk to me about your experiences.

Josefine: Silke, when did you have your child and what stage of your professional life were you at then?

JOSEFINE: Svantje, when did you have your child and at what point were you at?

SILKE: Were you employed during this period? Did you get sick pay or anything like that?

SVANTJE: Yes, but the job was – as usual – only temporary. I had to register as unemployed. At the beginning of the pregnancy I was really struggling. I first had to come to terms with the shock that my social role was now changing and access to the profession I had learned was becoming difficult. I looked around the team and saw that apart from one or two older colleagues whose children were older, nobody had a family. This made me very unsettled and I thought I had to make a decision now: either film or family. I thought that I might finish my master's degree, but after that I probably wouldn't have a place in this film world as a mother.

JOSEFINE: Silke, how did you experience the beginning of your pregnancy?

SILKE: I was employed at the time, but I stopped working immediately. But my motivation was different to that of Svantje. I was a bit older and saw the pregnancy as more of an adventure that I consciously wanted to experience. I was able to enjoy receiving unemployment benefits, being pregnant and not having to work in film. I thought to myself: film and the stress that comes with it is definitely bad for the child. (laughs) I had already earned money, had a good circle of clients and was relatively successful. Somehow the business was running smoothly. I was able to consciously decide not to subject myself and my child to this mental and physical stress. For me it was a nice break.

JOSEFINE: Did you have any concerns about whether you would be able to get back into the industry after giving birth?

SILKE: I already thought that this isn't a job where you have children! But then I discovered the community of working parents in the film in different areas. I was surprised at how many people back then - in 2003 - were openly positive about parenthood. Especially female producers, but also men, directors who already had children of their own that I didn't even know about. Rope teams formed straight away. Without children of my own, I simply hadn't seen these parents on the film crew before. But there was also a lot of discrimination, some of which I didn't take too seriously because we young women had to deal with it all the time anyway. Worst of all, we found a lot of it to be “completely normal”.

JOSEFINE: Svantje, you talked about the fear of having to change careers after the birth of your child? Where did this fear come from?

SVANTJE: On the one hand, my colleagues suggested this attitude of " either film or family" to me. When I was already pregnant, but nobody knew about it yet, I had a conversation with a colleague. She said at the time that everyone she knew who worked in film was either separated or did not have stable relationships. Such a statement naturally made me totally insecure at the time. On the other hand, I felt really guilty. Because I could no longer be part of this strenuous project, which demanded a lot of work. I let my colleagues - there were almost only women in the team - down. There was so much pressure and I just couldn't be productive. Nobody ever contacted me again after that. When I felt better, I tried to make contact again. But the response felt like: she's pregnant, she's out of the picture now. So I left this professional world straight away.

SILKE: ...and I worked more on "small" arthouse films and as a production designer. It was a different starting point. I didn't work "under anyone". The subject of incapacity to work is not treated objectively at all in the art department. Of course people get sick. The fact that you can sometimes be sick was only legitimized for the first time by Corona. Before Corona, everyone in the art department always went to work when they were sick. Being absent was not an option, not even because of pregnancy. That was just a professional ethos.

A film project is like a ship that sets sail. You jump on and ride along. At some point it will dock again and then everyone will have to disembark again. But no one gets out while sailing. Of course it's a really stupid feeling to be the only person who leaves early or temporarily. Nobody dared to do that. This fleeting but close working together creates the feeling of getting the others into trouble. Especially since the staffing level is always a touch too thin. As Head of Department, I immediately have a big problem if I lose even one person. In doing so, I unconsciously convey to my employees that every single person is indispensable. This of course reinforces their feeling that they should not be absent under any circumstances.

JOSEFINE: I also had this challenge with my last project. I couldn't live up to my expectations as a “good boss” at all because we were so narrow as a team. It was a series for television and of course a long period of time. People get sick sometimes and people have private appointments. I wanted parents to have a place in my team and be able to work well. But I wasn't able to shape the conditions the way I would have liked. I've asked other colleagues and I get the feeling that the production companies and broadcasters are condoning this chronic understaffing for cost reasons. I find this situation totally depressing.

SILKE: Unfortunately, the industry often brings that with it. But it doesn't have to be that way!

JOSEFINE: Svantje, you have now had your first professional experience as a mother. What is it like for you to work with a child in the art department?

SVANTJE: That depends very much on the partnership or the other parent with whom you have the child. Whether there is the possibility of letting each other practice the profession. My partner also works in film. On the one hand, he has an understanding of the working conditions. On the other hand, its “operation times” are shorter. He makes feature films rather than being a gaffer or head gaffer. In the production setting, the working hours and the period in which you work are much longer. When I was in production, my partner had to take a serious step back professionally because he couldn't accept the offer to be a gaffer on a film.

SILKE: This reflects the fact that parents generally have a slower career in film. This is really unfortunate because money is of course needed much more urgently with a child. In addition, as a parent you have much less time to earn it. The good news is: every opportunity comes back! Not the same, but different.

SVANTJE: I still have the feeling that I'm not alone. There are many people who face similar problems and have to go through this process. I am now much more willing to fight for certain things or change given things. But I also realized how difficult it is while you're in an ongoing production. At that moment you are caught in this hamster wheel in which you have to keep up.

As a mother, I am driven by more existential needs and cannot commit myself to things unconditionally. But I am in the process of dealing with the situation creatively and rethinking things in relation to my career path. For example, I work part-time as a freelancer for an interior designer. This gives me a certain independence from the film industry while my partner is working, for example.

I am currently looking for the adjustment screws, where and at what point one can really have an influence.

It is important that the conditions in film change. Not just for people with children. There should be a general change in the work-life balance .

SILKE: My generation probably says that you're just whining because we were very good at “posing” and didn't let ourselves be seen much. Otherwise there was a risk of having to listen to jokes from colleagues who were almost all male. So I didn't really talk much about my child and the circumstances that came with it. That was basically “secret”.

For example, I was sitting in meetings and noticed that my phone was ringing the whole time: the day-care! Or: the school! As "relaxed" as possible in such a situation, I got up and answered the call in the coffee kitchen or in the bathroom. As soon as everything was sorted out for the moment, I went back to the meeting to continue sitting there "completely relaxed”. I wasn't the one who shouted out loud: "My child is sick; I have to go now!" I tried to sort it out quietly. Maybe that's the reason why we sometimes roll our eyes today when the younger people talk about work-life balance and "My child is sick" ... because we managed it too, and in a different way. (thinks)

I'm definitely torn. I would of course be happy if younger women today were spared the strange kind of conversations and comments that I experienced back then. And I see young men today who are much more concerned with their children. I think that's a good thing, of course. But when a young father jumps up from a conference table in a panic and shouts: "Huuu, I have to pick up my child from day-care now," I often think that I used to do that every day, too. But without making such a fuss.

JOSEFINE: Why?! Why did you do that? For example, hide your motherhood?

SILKE: We were a generation of women for whom it was no longer uncommon to have studied, then worked in demanding academic jobs and still wanted to have children. Not that this hasn't happened before. But they were more isolated cases. We are also the generation that somehow wanted to be better than men at everything. Of course, that's nonsense...why should I want to be better? Why not just as well? But as a woman who wanted to achieve something, you always had to be a little better than your male colleagues in the same position.

JOSEFINE: Because it was expected of you, or because you expected it of yourself?

SILKE: I had men around me who had worse education than me. Who had significantly less “drive” than me. But they were paid better or worked in better positions. I also noticed that my career was progressing more slowly. This becomes very clear when you look at who I compete with for the same jobs today. These are mostly men who are about ten years younger than me. That means they were at a certain point ten years earlier that took me much longer.

Back then it was always just a strange feeling. There are now studies that demonstrate such structures and initiatives that deal with these phenomena - Pro Quote Film, for example. But back then it was just a feeling or even an assertion. That's why the question isn't that easy to answer... Given all the disadvantages that women already had... plus having to carry my child in front of me "like a balcony", I preferred to leave it alone.

JOSEFINE: Because you were afraid if it came to light that you were a mother...

SILKE: ...well, when you went to any industry meetings back then, a production manager would say, for example, “So-and-so is out” because she has “the women’s disease. ”

And I was like, “What kind of illness?”

The production manager: “She’s pregnant.”

I then said: “An illness , is that even possible? You have three children yourself! Is that an illness or what?!” I then had to go out and could only compensate for it with a certain aggression.

There were also situations where I was asked for a project over the phone and my little son was squeaking in the background. Then came the very interested question from the male production manager: "Oh, do you have children?" I had already prepared the counter questions: "Yes, a son! Do you have children too?" - He did. Of course he then asked me how I was going to manage working as a production designer with a child for his project. I simply asked back whether HE had thought about how he was going to do it with HIS ONE child. I still remember with indignation how often I had to justify myself or prove that I could manage both. I wonder how often my male colleagues, who were also fathers, had to answer questions like that?

JOSEFINE: How did you organize yourself and your families during a project?

JOSEFINE: Svantje, it would probably not be financially possible for you at the moment to employ someone to look after your child in the long term. How are you positioned there?

SVANTJE: I really couldn't afford a nanny right now.

SILKE: Sure? Every day you go to work, you earn more than childcare would cost. Even if she earns a little more than minimum wage.

SVANTJE: But I also have to think about the rent and everything else...

JOSEFINE: There is a big difference whether you work as Head of Department. Maybe in the future you can always take your child with you when negotiating salary (laughter)...

SILKE: At least in your head you should! From the moment I had a child, I started earning better. Because I had to!

SVANTJE: There is my child's father and his sister, who has also just started a full-time job after maternity leave. These difficulties are not only found in the film industry. We support each other by passing the children on to each other. We also live with someone who has a child and we share childcare with them. During the four months that I have been working on a series, my partner could not stay at home the whole time. Firstly, because it is unsatisfactory for him. Secondly, we could still use the extra income. In times of energy crisis and inflation, supporting three people on one salary is not easy.

During my master's final phase, my partner was on a project for two months. During that time I had to work, get my degree and look after the child. This would not have been possible without temporary paid childcare.

Not daily, but once or twice a week during delivery periods. Luckily, our child is very social and can get along well with other people. Friends sometimes pick them up from day-care. When we have the capacity again, we will take on the children from the circle of friends. You have to organize yourself well and it is of course a logistical effort. You can also plan the entire week...then the child gets sick and the whole organization...

JOSEFINE: ...goes crazy.

SILKE: It was very similar for us in terms of the organization and the people involved. The good thing about it is that you learn to organize yourself well and that is exactly what you have to be able to do as a production designer.

SVANTJE: But you don't come home after such a long day at work and then it's over. Keyword: mental load. You come home and carry on organizing. Then you pull out bits and pieces and listen to the day and put it to bed. That's the part that your colleagues don't notice. They just see: Ah yes, she came to work ten minutes late again. And you just think to yourself: Wow, I did it!

JOSEFINE: Silke, when you put together your team, do you consider whether or how many colleagues have children?

SILKE: Yes. I think that's important. First of all, it should of course be possible to have children in this job. At the same time, of course, the whole team can't always take this into account. If I only had parents on the team, it could be logistically difficult. If I employ parents, I have to be able to rely on them to have childcare well organized. In exceptional cases, the unforeseen can happen.

JOSEFINE: Does that mean you would rather not hire single parents?

SILKE: Yes, especially! They are always there, always on time, and also extremely organized. But of course, I'm not asking about that. It's all in the mix! I have had experiences myself where other superiors and employees showed consideration for me. It is important to me to have parents on the team and to integrate them. They also often bring a different atmosphere to the team because parents have to leave at a certain point and don't sit in the office until 11 p.m. I find that pleasant.

There were times when I was totally stressed out when, as a mother and also the highest-paid boss, I went home at 7:30 p.m. and my employees sat in the office until late into the night. When I said: “Please go home and finish work!” I was asked who would do all the work? That was a stupid situation and I thought: “Then the tasks won’t be finished until tomorrow.”

JOSEFINE: Would you really have supported that as the boss?

SILKE: Starting a film like this is like a huge pile being dumped with a dump truck. We are all handed a tiny spoon and begin to complete our tasks. These tasks are only over with the wrap, because then this pile is removed. It always lies there for so long. It has to be worn out at some point, that's clear to me. But if people sit there until 10 p.m. or 11 p.m., I don't have a good basis for arguing with the clients why we need further support, for example. Because they then see no need for action and say to themselves: Why, it's working?

JOSEFINE: If you look at the current composition of the courses, it is clear that the next generation will be female in production and costume design. How will this fact affect the professional profile?

SILKE: Good question, because I still see myself in a male environment and have gotten used to it. If 90% of the work is in female hands in the future - and it will be, if you look at the young talent, the profession will have to be designed in such a way that women can succeed in it. Then the topic of children and parenthood needs to be given more consideration. However, we as scene designers will have to create the conditions ourselves, because no one will do that for us. It must come from our demands that we can work under certain circumstances and not under certain circumstances! Job sharing is just as important as an appropriately organized team.

A completely different field of work has developed for production design over the last thirty years. With the increasing demands on production value that comes with large series, we now have to bring a completely different skill set. The word has already gotten around among good production companies that such projects cannot be created overnight with a small team with 24 days of shooting and four weeks of preparation time.

You, as the next generation, have to develop a certain understanding of how you can offer this required quality. NOT having children is definitely not a suitable option! No matter what profession! Scene designers also have the right to be parents. However, it is also up to you to create the conditions for this.

SVANTJE: Many young mothers who have studied production design are faced with the question of whether they should choose production design or their child. I hear that a lot. It's not very appealing to be Head of Department under the current circumstances when you have an incredible amount of responsibility and these extreme working hours, and then you have to go home from work and be completely in charge there too ... in that position you take your work home with you and are responsible the whole time. I wish that women were not faced with this decision. So far I have only been able to work as a production designer for shorter projects. Longer projects can currently only be arranged in less responsible positions for the production design department.

SILKE: As a production designer, it's actually up to me to enforce requirements that allow me to combine my child and my job. In general, it is important to have a sufficiently large team at the beginning of the negotiations. Because that means relief for me and everyone else. If I have a qualified, well-paid assistant, I can expect them to stand up for me if I have to leave early because of the child. It's not strange when she has to represent me, it's natural. It would be completely inappropriate to demand this form of responsibility from people who only receive minimum wage. For me, a budget that fits the scope of the project is also a guarantee as to whether I will be stressed or not.

It is also important to make sure you earn enough money. In order not to get into the situation where I absolutely HAVE to do a certain job, even if I know that the conditions aren't actually right. I actually always felt quite comfortable in my position as production designer because I had the impression that I could influence these important factors. If I notice that a production company is trying to get me into trouble, for example through chaotic circumstances, late requests, etc., I have to refrain from such a project.

JOSEFINE: How did your child get along with your career? Did you get through it well?

SILKE:I really always forbade myself to have a guilty conscience and tried to push back this external pressure as best as I could. Am I a good mother? May be, may not be. But I brought home the money for food and rent and tried to dedicate some of my time to my child. I'm only human and I've tried to do the best I can with the job I have. When it comes to film, the projects are at least limited in time. Doctors, for example, always have these extreme working hours. At least I could decide whether I would take care of my child or move on to the next job straight away. It wasn't perfect, but it was doable.

SVANTJE: Based on the experiences I have had over the last few months, it depends on the quality of time. I very consciously took time with my child on the weekends so that I could fully immerse myself in my daughter. I think it's important that my daughter realizes that she has a mother who goes to work. Who can make money. Who is independent. Who gets something like that together. And who is still at the start for them as best as possible. I am a role model. Things were different at my house. My mother was at home. I don't want to work full time my whole life to model that for my daughter. But when I'm doing such an intense job, I think it's important that she notices. During this time she also saw that there were a lot of other people around her. My child is not only focused on me as a parent, but she also has the opportunity to become emotionally attached to other people. Of course the basis has to be right.

JOSEFINE: I also grappled with the issue of whether I wanted children or not. But I want to be able to decide for myself whether this job is compatible with my child and family or not. I don't want to have to assume from the outset that it can't work anyway because of the given, i.e. crappy, conditions and then prefer to leave it as it is. But somehow that's exactly what I do...

Job sharing is currently being discussed a lot. How promising do you see this concept?

SILKE: I don't think we're ready yet. The broadcasters and productions are currently planning on a fee for a production designer. If we share the job, it doesn't mean that we both work fifty percent. Because of the overlaps that must occur, both of us work more like sixty percent. So the production company would have to pay about twenty percent more for that. Or we would forego money for the parallel handover times. But I wouldn't think that's right.

Now that there are so many series offerings, the situation is changing. Such requests to be in a production for one and a half or two years from now on are totally unattractive. With these Working hours and then almost no vacation. Of course you earn a lot of money over such a long period of time, but you can then completely put your private and family life on hold for a while...As a person with children, that's not a very tempting prospect. That's why I think there will be no other option in the future than job sharing.

SVANTJE: I spoke to an older production manager and she says that job sharing is simply not compatible with the needs of many trades. Because it is difficult to organize the kind of smooth handovers that are necessary.

SILKE: Not yet! But we older people haven't known any series yet. Of course, it would work very well with job sharing and agreements, because our department is in constant communication anyway. We just have to set up the communication structures so that it works well. In the future, the productions need to think about asking two production designers for a project who can guarantee each other vacation and free time. If you want to produce seriously in the future, I think that's the only option, with or without family as a reason. The art department members are already very interested in this direction at the moment.

SVANTJE: In order to achieve something like this, we have to stand together and demand better conditions.

SILKE: V!S!K!

JOSEFINE: Silke, you're doing a great job with the VSK advertising ...

SILKE: The fact is, it's currently the only thing we have to organize ourselves! It is the only way we can connect with other stakeholders, meet and share our needs with each other. There are people there who fight on a voluntary basis for better working conditions.

We shouldn't always complain about the system, but we have to shape it ourselves - as part of it.

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